UN Geneva - Multimedia Newsroom : UNCTAD Press conference

Good morning everybody.

Thank you for being here with us.

As it was said, we are launching the UN trade and development report on the least developed countries.

And the question in this report is trying to answer is if services are really the new path to structural transformation.

You know that services are playing an increasingly important role in these developed economies.

They now account for about half of economic output in an average these developed country and are often presented, particularly in the context of digital transformation, as a new pathway for prosperity.

This report takes an evidence based look at that promise.

It examines whether services can deliver sustained growth, better jobs and rising incomes, and under what conditions they can support real structural transformation and integration into regional and global value chains.

So despite the promise of a services in LDCs, still employment is dominated by informal employment.

It's informal in personal services, in substance subsistence activities, while higher productivity services that could support industrialisation and competitiveness remain underdeveloped.

I say we say in the press release, these developed countries face unprecedented employment challenges.

Between now and 2050, they will need to create drops for around 13.2 million New Labour market entrants every year, making employment creation a defining constraint for development strategies.

And as I said before, while services are a very important source to absorb much a lot of the growing workforce, most of the services employment remains in the informal sector and have not produced productivity gains in the least developed countries.

And in that sense it also present a challenge in terms of earnings, a decent living.

In this, gaps in labour productivity are very stark.

Labour productivity in the average these developed countries is 11 times lower than in the median developed economy.

So these gaps shape the type of services countries can realistically develop and export.

At the same time, as we all know to these challenges, these internal challenges faced by the LDCs, they also are navigating a very challenging global economy marked by rising volatility and widening asymmetries.

Trade disruptions, geopolitical tensions and supply chain shocks have made the global economy less predictable and are affecting specially LD CS growth is slowing for these countries, investment remains weak and debt pressures are constraining policy space in many countries.

As you know, we have continued to update the number, but still 3.4 billion people living countries that spend more in servicing the debt than on health and education.

And these constraints in the fiscal space in these developed countries affect the capacity of these countries to invest, to invest in skills and infrastructure, in productive activity and diversification, in resilience.

And that in turns shapes jobs, incomes and stability.

So the core challenge for these developed countries today is not participation in the global economy, but the quality and sustainability of that participation in, as I said, these constraints affect directly the ability of these countries to do better and to take advantage in the opportunity of services as a source of structural transformation.

Trade policy rules are part of these challenges and here we have had good news in the last week since the African Growth and Opportunity Act called AGOA has been renewed in the USA.

And as you know, AGOA provides duty free access to the United States market for 32 Sub-saharan African countries, including 21 least developed countries.

And so particularly in labour intensive sectors such as textiles and apparel, as well as in food, agriculture and natural resource based products, a Goa is a very important instrument.

So this access underpins entire export industries and 10s of thousands of jobs, especially for women in many of these countries.

So I want to acknowledge the decision by the US to renew AGOA related benefits.

And let's us stress again that predictable rules based market access allows countries to plan to invest and to create employment.

So it's very important for these countries that that will be maintained in a fragmented global economy.

Decisions like this show that when trade rules are designed with development in mind, they strengthen the system.

The same logic applies beyond goods.

It also applies to the fast growing services economy.

So, as I said before, let me give you some of the numbers with respect to services in the least developed countries.

As I said before, services account for around half of economic output in the average LDC, half of GDP.

But the digitally deliverable services are still very constrained.

They are true a the fastest growing segment of global trade, but LTCS account only for 0.16% of global exports on digitally deliverable services.

So really negligible their participation in this sector in the global exports.

So despite the fact that if we look at the general trends in trade and services is growing very fast, it's really now the engine of growth of trade.

Digital services are on the lead, AI related trade is also fastly growing.

The LDCs have not yet benefit from these trends.

So the benefits of the digital economy growth are happening largely outside the least developed countries.

So to finalise the analysis, what we are saying is this is an opportunity, but services will contribute to transformation only when they are able to rise productivity.

This happens when services are linked to manufacturing, to agriculture, to logistics and to trade.

And it requires skills, infrastructure, digital connectivity and supportive investment policies.

When services grow in isolation, they absorb labour without lifting incomes, and when embedded in coherent strategies, they can reinforce diversification, competitiveness and resilience.

Small domestic markets also have more difficulties to take advantage of these opportunities, and so regional integration and global integration are essential for these countries to be able to take advantage of that.

So get it right and services can support better jobs, stronger exports and more resilient economies.

Get it wrong and existing asymmetries will deepen in social and economic benefits won't happen.

So our role in ANTAQ is precisely to do this to connect evidence with strategy, national efforts with global rules that actually can deliver for these economies.

And I will so now pass the floor to Junior Davis.

Maybe you you want to intervene here so Junior can depend on the report.

Let me congratulate the team for a wonderful report and a wonderful effort of research analyst.

Yes, thank you, Secretary General.

No, we've got directed to to Junior Davis for the a bit more of of policy details and then we go directly to the to the Q&A.

[Other language spoken]

Good morning and thank you very much Secretary General for your insightful comments and and encouragement with the report.

[Other language spoken]

As services expand across LDCs, can they drive structural transformation and better jobs?

Or our expectations outpacing the reality of the situation?

The answer is conditional.

As the SG has just mentioned, services matter, but only when productivity, linkages and capabilities are deliberately built.

So why does this matter now?

Why are we looking at this now?

We're looking at this now, firstly, because manufacturing and industrialization faces much higher capital and skill thresholds.

LDCs are facing much stronger competition in the manufacturing sector and that makes it harder for them to follow traditional growth patterns.

Secondly, services now constitute approximately 2/3 of global output and they are the principal driver of global growth and sorry, global employment growth worldwide.

And this structural shift is also evident in LDCs where services account for an increasing share of economic activity and labour absorption.

And thirdly, digitalisation lowers some barriers but raises new requirements in terms of skills, infrastructure and reliable energy.

And these are things traditionally the LDCs are somewhat in deficit compared to non LDCs.

What does the report's data show about services in general?

Well the SG has already run through some of the critical numbers.

I would only add that services absorb labour but largely into low value informal and non tradeable activities and that limits income growth.

The report shows evidence of trade concentration and increased vulnerability because services which are 16% of the LD CS total exports and heavily are heavily concentrating travel and transport.

These are sectors that are uniquely exposed to shocks and where there are relatively low returns to labour.

It also reveals a weak LDC position in dynamic services segments.

So what the report shows is that although LD, CS share of GDP accounting for services is growing, very, very little of that is actually in knowledge intensive services activities or a digitally deliverable services sectors and that is going to constrain access to the fastest growing services markets.

What does that imply in 4 short lessons?

What can we derive from the report?

Well first that there are no shortcuts.

Services only support structural transformation when they raise productivity and are linked to manufacturing, agriculture or tradables.

Enclave growth without spillovers will not transform economies.

Services work best when embedded in coherent national strategies focusing on industrial policy, infrastructure and trade integration.

Services alone should not be the key approach.

Low skill services are critical for employment, but the liberal, deliberate pathways must exist to move workers into higher value knowledge intensive roles.

And LDCs must close digital and skills gaps.

So improved access to information, communication technology, reliable energy, human capital improvements, these are all decisive and without this LDCs will fall further behind.

What are the key policy priorities that the report identified?

Well, first, the LDCs must build capabilities.

They must target skills, innovation systems and inclusive training, particularly for women and youth.

[Other language spoken]

Exporters need export promotion tailored particularly to micro small to medium sized enterprises.

They need digital tools for finance that are appropriate to, to, to firms of that size if they are to successfully grow and transition into larger, more competitive markets and firms.

They also need, as the SG said, to leverage regional markets.

That's critical.

And so, you know, they must try to, to, to get much more involved in ATM, in a FCFTA and the strengthening and deepening of regional integration and is, is going to be critical to success in this area.

And they need to protect their policy space.

And in addition to that, they will need further international support.

That means concessional finance, technology transfer, multilateral engagement so that they can prevent further marginalisation in the global economy.

When, when, when we, when I read the report, there's one thing that sort of struck me.

I suppose this is an anecdote.

You know, whenever I go to the continent, I see more and more young people getting involved in services related activities.

Everybody's got a mobile phone, everybody's trading online, people are getting into crypto currencies.

So you feel as if there is real dynamism and and growth and depth in the digitally driven services segments of the services sector.

That's the feeling you kind of get.

That's the vibe you kind of get.

But what the data shows actually is that the digital divide is actually widening and that the the proportion of exports that LDCs in the services sector can deliver as a as a share of the Global Services market is actually diminishing over time.

They're becoming more marginalised, less integrated, less competitive.

And it's a kind of, for me, it's kind of counter intuitive in terms of what you see.

But the data suggests something else.

And that means critical services related infrastructure still matters, water, energy, telecommunications infrastructure, adequate access to electricity and of course investment in human capital, especially in the tertiary sector.

Maybe I'll stop there.

Thank you very much.

[Other language spoken]

Thank you very much, Junior.

Thank you very much.

As the headline is clear, no shortcuts.

Appearances are deceiving and progress does not happen in isolation.

We open the floor, you know the drill, raise your hand.

We always give the first shot at the media here in the in the in the room.

And then we go to those online of which we have plenty name media outlet and to whom you address your question and I see Agnes from Ross Vospes.

[Other language spoken]

And yes, Pedro Jonas from AFP here in Geneva.

A question because I'm trying to to understand better what the, the, the report said.

If I understand well, the report is saying that investing in services is, is has to be done.

But so far LD CS hasn't invested in the, I would say the, the right sectors, the one who are bringing growth and, and jobs that are that are have productivity and, and, and then what is the relation between all these services and the investment in services and the AGOA agreement that has been renewed with the industrial sector?

I'm, I'm not seeing what is the link between 2:00 so those two issues.

So if you could make the link for us.

[Other language spoken]

Thank you very much.

Let me let me go directly to, to the AGOA part.

What we are saying is that predictability continues to be very important for these countries.

And the fact is that LDC's were hit the highest or the strongest with the rise in tariffs from the US.

The average, if I remember correctly, the average tariff for these countries is around 27%.

That is higher than the developed countries.

So they were hit not only because tariffs are higher, but also because with respect to others, they are in a competitive disadvantage.

And the importance of AGOA is that it allows for the access to the US market without the burden of these tariffs.

And services and goods are very related, yes, when you look at the high quality services that are needed for trade, they are related to the kind of exports that the countries can have.

So the highest hit by the high tariffs in the US were manufacturing.

And what we are saying is precisely that manufacturing is one of the services that has to be linked to the high productivity services.

So if you don't have both in tandem, so it's very difficult to develop really high quality services for these countries and you know a push for structural transformation.

So that's why we are celebrating that AGOA happened.

There is as a paper that we, it did publish before the decision was taken with all the numbers and how much this is important for these countries for the LD CS.

So I, I invite you to, to look at that because it was very short, but very sharp at the same time.

Let me, let me even comment on, on something that a junior said.

You know, part of the problem with digitalization and why the gaps are widening is that we are using in many of our countries, in the developing countries, digitalization for consumption but not for production.

And unless the digital revolution enters into the productive structure, we won't be able to have high productivity growth in these countries.

And I we saw the same in Latin America.

Latin America, for example, before was one of the countries with the widespread use of Internet, but it was for consumption.

It took a long time until it started really to heat and to transform production.

And you know, that was very important for a push of productivity.

But sometimes we get confused, yes, because digital Internet or digital services are used but are not transforming the way in which we produce or the productive matrix of the countries.

And with respect to, in, in, in the other problem with respect to to digital transformation and high productivity services, I remember this anecdote of the two.

Probably you have heard this of the two friends that they were walking and then they face, they see a tiger coming in.

So one of them start to change his shoes for the running shoes and the other one says well, but why are you doing that?

You are not going to run faster than the tiger.

And he said, no, I don't want to run faster than the tiger, I want to run faster than you.

And that is what happens in the digital, you know, not, you know, obviously there is a growth of the, of, of the digital and the new technology services.

But the pace by which the transformation is happening for some of the countries vis A vis the others is why the gap is widening because it's not fast enough.

So going back to what Junior said, finance, investment and technology transfer start, you know, again, are the three elements that are so important for these countries to be able to catch up.

[Other language spoken]

Thank you, Secretary General, I can say it here.

[Other language spoken]

Isabel Sacco with Spanish news Agency I, I I I was struck by the number that you mentioned of the the number of employments that we will have to create to 2050 in these LDCs.

If my maths are more or less correct, these are more than 300 million in 25 in 24 years.

So what it means that if we if this is not achieved, what it means in terms not only of development, but in terms of stability of security, of migration.

That's what I would like to have your reflection.

[Other language spoken]

I will give the floor also to my to to my colleagues.

But the, the, the, the question is spot on because obviously if we are not able to transform the productive structure to be able to absorb the demographic bonus of these countries, you know, most of the young people of the world will live in Africa by 2050.

And so if we are not able to create the quality employment, you are right, you know we will, we will have social problems, instability, migration, because there will be a displacement of the opportunities for this young population.

And that's why we are sounding the alarm.

We need to look at the LDC's, we need to look at the most vulnerable countries that won't be able to make it happen unless there is cooperation and the the international system also provides the conditions for them to thrive.

The basics we know we need energy, we, we, we need water, we need roads, we need infrastructure.

That's hasn't changed with respect to development, but now for the new technologies and for the new opportunities, these are even more important conditions because without energy you cannot go for really transformative a digital economy that will be the the mainstream of the future.

So I think that the part of what we are saying is this is not going to happen alone.

It will need good policies inside the countries but it will need deliberate designs and instruments at the international level for the investment to be able to happen in these countries.

You have heard me many times saying that the multilateral development banks have a special role to play here because investment is not going by itself private investment to these countries.

We need to crowd in private investment with a deliberate design of projects and the risking instruments from the multilateral development system for these countries to be able to receive the flow of investment and financial resources that they will need to make it happen.

But the junior.

Actually this is exactly why we decided to have a look at this topic because there is a lot of optimism out there around the services sector and we were concerned, or at least we we did keep a bit of optimism.

But we really needed to drill down and see what is happening in the LDCs and if the issue of productive employment is being taken care of by a move to services.

[Other language spoken]

This is what our analysis is telling us.

Because somebody mentioned the AGOA, we have a situation where LTCS are exporting.

They're exporting a lot.

The export to the US has risen exponentially.

However, in order to export, they need the services which are the transport for the garment industry, for instance, there's a lot of import of intermediate inputs.

You need a well efficient import and export structure in your economy that is a service.

So there we see how improving your services can actually raise the productivity of your garments industry, for instance.

However, we also know that structurally the garments industry where the LDCs operate in the value chain is unfortunately at the bottom.

It is the low value segment of the garments industry.

Now services can improve that and improve and help them to upgrade if they can move into areas such as design, if they can provide more services to their buyers in terms of putting together a package of how they deliver the goods, adding more bits and pieces to, to to their T-shirt.

But all that is around design.

So you can improve that with AI and other things.

All this you can use digitally delivered services to be able to, to to improve your offer.

Now what we're seeing is in most cases services do exist in LDCs, but they're not connected to these traditional sectors such as manufacturing the garments I have mentioned.

So it is about how you integrate your services into your manufacturing, into your trade system and, and, and that does take a lot of improving your education.

Now the garments industry, for instance, traditionally absorbed low skill, not necessarily highly educated labour.

But in order to move up the chain and add more value and increase the income, which will in turn circulate in the domestic economy and drive consumption, consumption and demand in the economy, which will unlock many more services and industries in the economy.

This is what you want at the end.

So if you're stuck at the low value where you're getting no externalities, services can help.

But if you are not strategically are using the services, you will stay in that position and you will not be able to absorb all the labour that is coming into the labour market each year.

So it was important for us to point out to the policy makers that services are a tool, but they have to be deployed in a strategic and intelligent way that will actually help you meet your goals, which is development, productive employment, higher incomes, wealth generation.

[Other language spoken]

Thank you very much.

Just just briefly on the if Isabel got her math right, junior, just briefly in terms of the numbers.

And also of course we mentioned the labour market and of course the IT goes far beyond trade as such, but exactly.

And and then the follow up quickly while she look up the number if we have it.

Yeah, Miss Riva said just in terms of example.

So it means that when you mentioned the exports that the LDCs export important number of governments, I mean in quantities, volume whatever and or any other products, agriculture products.

So it means that they don't control the transport exactly.

So it means that compound companies from the median of developed countries, economies that are really taking this gain with in the intermediation, I mean to take the products in these countries and to take them to US or Europe or whatever, when, wherever.

So it means that we need this development of to, as you said, the service is not enough.

But all that goes with in terms of trade, transport, for example, very important.

So this is we can say that in transport they are not again in anything.

It's just other companies from other countries.

[Other language spoken]

The point is you increase your competitivity and you increase the your profit by being more efficient in your transport.

So we do see that LDCs are investing a lot in transport hubs and improving trade facilitation.

But the point I was trying to make is that the services have always been there, but you need to improve them.

And the excitement around the services trade is, is, is is not to be understood as services on their own.

It is what services can help you to make you more competitive, how services can help you to be more competitive.

If we look at modern services, what in the report we have referred to as modern services.

And here we're looking at more the digitally delivered services like business process outsourcing.

For many of the LDCs, they're targeting the easy entry, which is for instance, the call centres.

So you can be sitting in an LDC but servicing a market which is very far from you.

It's, it's, it's you're exporting your services running call centres for for businesses.

However, this has the same kind of parallels to low value exports, which have not much transformation in them because anybody it's, it's, it's a, it's, it's a segment where any country can enter it.

You don't need people who are highly educated.

You need somebody who can speak English.

You need somebody who can communicate with the target market and you're just answering questions.

The pay is low.

There's very few opportunities to actually add value to that service or, or move out of the service once you, you, you, you are in it.

And so the point is you're not adding value.

You are not creating high quality types of employment that will put more money in the pockets of your your your your citizens who will then be able to buy more because that's what you want to happen.

Thank you very much.

Let me see we have any questions directly from the media connected online you want to raise your hands.

There is one question in writing, this is comes from Alma Yadin Television, and if I understand it correctly, the question is on the report and then on on process.

But on the report specifically, if the situation in the Middle East is addressed in the report, it refers probably to the LDC category and so on.

No, we we don't really discuss Middle East issues in the report.

I think there is only one LDC, which is sort of in that region.

And yes, Yemen.

And because of the situation in Yemen and the data coming from Yemen, there's not a lot we can say about Yemen in particular in terms of the LDCs.

So the answer to that question is probably no.

Yeah, I think that's all I can really say about that.

And then and then follow up from the same, from the same outlet in terms of the language versions of the report, which is currently only available in English.

Yeah, I can say that we will the report will be translated in all 7 UN languages.

The summary or the overview I think is, is, is already, I think in five UN languages and should be available very soon online in all 5 languages in those five languages.

But there's usually a bit of a delay in terms of the report being available in languages beyond England, English and French, usually quite a, it's quite a gap, but they will be eventually in the other UN languages.

At the moment it's available in English and very soon in French.

[Other language spoken]

Thank you very much for those clarifications.

We encourage also to to review the the overview which is which is published and also we will be of course on on social media.

We make the effort in in other languages as well in terms of all the communications around not only this report, but all our flagship reports and going even beyond official UN languages such as Swahili, Urdu, Hindi and also Portuguese.

I see again the handwritten from the floor of Jean Vos Pres.

Yes, thank you for this question.

It's a question to Secretary General about two, two things which which are maybe together.

But on the US withdrawal of the young TAT, what are your comments on that and how it will impact the organisation and what would be the, the way forward?

And separately, if you have a message, as it's your last press conference as the head of UMTAD, So what, what message do you have on how UMTAD do, do, could do and, and more in general about the, the UN?

[Other language spoken]

They decided to do that, but it it doesn't impact us financially because we don't receive any voluntary contributions from from the US And they in fact this consolidated a situation that has been developed since 2018 when the Palestine entered as a full member in antat.

So the US distant itself from from Antat.

So in a way, it consolidated the situation that has already that was already there.

But still we will do you know, our efforts for for all the countries to be active in in and that obviously and that is our our aim.

So with respect to to myself, I will, as as you know, I will see from the 1st of March, be away from Anta to dedicate myself to the campaign and that I already announced that to the Secretary General.

[Other language spoken]

We finalised the UNAT.

We are in a stable situation for ANTAC.

Obviously, if there will be instability in the whole UN, it will affect the ANTAC.

But for the moment, the process of the the the UNAT process is almost over for for ANTAC.

We continue to participate in the working groups on the knowledge hubs, on the data Commons and also on the macroeconomic working group.

With respect to LDCs and LDCs also in seats and that is colliding a part of the SA working groups.

We will continue to participate and and that is fully embedded in the process.

But with respect to the cuts, with respect to the staff or the financial resources, this situation is clear.

We went through the process in the 5th committee.

The things that were proposed by the organisation were respected and so we are, you know, well equipped for what is coming forward.

It is not an easy process.

Nobody cuts 20% of the staff without paying and we feel the pain.

But there is no instability with respect to the stable positions in Antat.

And so the staff in that sense can be can be quiet.

In terms of of the future, we will we have intensify our efforts in terms of extra budgetary resource mobilisation if they are being fruitful and we have been able to secure important finance resources for the activities of Antat going forward.

We have the trust fund with China, for example, that was promised by Xi Jinping, President Xi, in the 60th anniversary.

We have secured the finance for the supply chain forum and for the trade, a world investment forum, one with Qatar and the other with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

And there are new donors coming to ANTAC.

So in that sense is these are difficult times for everybody in the international community.

But I think that ANTAC, we have protected the core capacities of ANTAC.

So our people, I think that they are in a good path forward, a independent of my living, a temporary temporarily until wait I ask until the end of September of this year.

So let's see what happens.

But Ankat is in very good hands with the staff and with the management.

[Other language spoken]

Yes, Madam Greenspan, maybe you you would like to share with us some reflection thoughts on what do you feel this to be head of one important UN agency.

What that has what this has provide you as experience and knowledge to be then able to maybe be head of the UN system.

And and also in terms of because this is not was not your only experience in the in in in in United Nations, but you're I mean, where you have been more notorious and visible and and be in front of of a place that working in fields so important as poverty, development, trade.

So your experience, your, your, your vision and especially also having living, having lived this in this very difficult times.

[Other language spoken]

Well, first, first of all, as a leader of an organisation is very important to understand that you cannot outsource management.

You have to get involved.

Management is also about leadership.

You don't reform an organisation in, in, in remote control.

You have to get involved, you have to know the details.

You have, you know, by this time probably I know every post in Antat that was vacant or that was filled and what did that meant for each division and for each unit of the organisation.

So I think that they, my first day, my first day, you know, understanding of these years and and the difficulty that we have navigated is that you have to prepare yourself.

You know, we have discussed about Ankat reform since I came to Ankat.

We presented to the board 10 points of reform.

We comply with them.

They really made a difference in terms of Antact capacities.

This was an amazing organisation.

Before I came, I have to say the capacities of the staff is the main resource of this organisation, the main wealth and what we did was to enhance that.

And also probably, and you refer to that, understand that the communication part of an organisation is not about marketing, it's about delivering results.

And if you don't understand that and you don't make that difference, you cannot improve the visibility and impact of an organisation.

Communicating your results, your research, your numbers, the evidence based analysis to influence decision making, to influence narratives and discussions at the global level has to do with the visibility and the communication skills of the organisation as a whole.

And I think that we have improved that too.

So you you have to assume the responsibilities of being a leader of an organisation and that responsibilities are are not separated from the management responsibilities with respect to the staff, with respect to the decisions that every day affect the delivery of the organisation.

My second point is to be part of the UN family.

I think that one of the things that probably have happened during these years is that Antac has become a much more important member of the UN family than before.

And that has in itself synergies and capacities to influence that go beyond the isolation of one part of the system.

Yes, to be part of the system.

It was a very a very important a very important thing and with respect to reform and change, I have said and I will repeat, you know, you have to embrace change.

We are you know, the UN is not in 1945.

Many things have happened in these 80 years that merit the the UN to embrace reform and change is part of of of the normal evolution of history.

Yes, and we have to embrace change and make it to strengthen the UN, its values, it's contribution to a more stable and peaceful world.

And you cannot do that from a defensive position, you have to do that from a proactive position, presenting what you think that should be the change that will transform for the better the organisation.

So leadership and embracing change are two important components of my experience during these years.

[Other language spoken]

Secretary General.

We have one question online, it's for John Salacostas, please.

[Other language spoken]

Thank you for this briefing.

I was wondering if you have some data in your analysis that might shed some light.

Is there an element that the LDC's are lagging behind because there is perhaps a brain drain in areas that require the skills, whether it's software engineers etcetera?

[Other language spoken]

We don't produce, we don't as such present any data specifically on the brain drain, although we recognise that that is a problem.

I think this comes back to this issue about labour migration both within and between states on the continent.

And when we think in terms, for example, of rural and urban migration, we're thinking most people are moving from agriculture, low return to labour, low skilled activities into to to low return to labour, low skilled activities in the in the urban services sector.

But we also know that from studies that have been done in Bangladesh, Nepal, Ethiopia, that some of the expansion employment of services in the tertiary are result of big investments in the tertiary sector.

So we see, for example, an explosion in Bangladesh of services, providers of architectural services online, engineering services online, various other sort of technical services which feed into more distant markets.

So you have two forms of brain drain in the sense you have the the actual labour migration from out from within to up to, from outside to, to, to, to, to outside of the country.

And we've seen that typically with nurses, doctors, engineers, but also increasingly within the continent.

But then in terms of services, what we've also seen is knowledge intensive services are increasingly being delivered to to to markets much further afield in very technical areas as I've, as I've just mentioned, but we don't produce any present any data specifically on the brain drain.

The 2018 Economic Development Africa report speaks to that and produces a lot of data and information on those issues.

And I could refer you to that For more information.

OK, I'll stop there.

[Other language spoken]

Thank you, junior.

Not sure if there's any other hands in the air, be it virtually or here in the room we don't have.

So with that, thank you.

Thank you so much for for attending.

UNCTAD Press conference - 10 February 2026